ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
In Democratic politics, Stacey Abrams may be best known for two things - working to expand voting rights and understanding the state of Georgia. She served as a state representative there and narrowly lost the race for governor in 2018. Well, both ballot access and Georgia could be essential to the Harris-Walz campaign's path to victory. And Stacey Abrams is here with us at the DNC in Chicago. Good to have you here.
STACEY ABRAMS: Thank you for having me.
SHAPIRO: You initially defended President Biden's decision to stay in the race. And since he ended his reelection campaign and endorsed Vice President Harris, can you tell me a specific story that reflects the change you have seen in Georgia?
ABRAMS: I think one of my barometers for what's happening on the ground is when I'm going through the Atlanta airport, the busiest airport in the world. There are a lot of maintenance workers who I say hi to when I'm going through. And after the change in nominee, I had one run up to me and like - are we going to win this now? Are we going to win this? I'm like, we've got to work at it. And, you know, she gave me a big hug, and she's like, OK.
SHAPIRO: They weren't running up to you with Biden at the top of the ticket.
ABRAMS: They were used to President Biden. I think the new energy - and I think that's what we're feeling. It's a change. Not only a changing of the guard, but a changing of character in the nature of this election, where people see themselves reflected in a different way. And this was an African American woman for whom, yes, she was probably going to vote for President Biden, but it was different to have someone who looks like her at the top of the ticket and to understand from where she stood what this could mean.
SHAPIRO: Let me ask you about voting rights. In Georgia specifically, the Republican-controlled election board implemented some very controversial new rules. Members of the board can now delay certification of election results. And the board includes some people who still deny the results of the 2020 election. This could potentially throw the state's vote count into chaos. What are you bracing for?
ABRAMS: I'm bracing for a return of or, in fact, a resurgence of the voter suppression that we've seen in the state for more than a decade. Let's remember that the reason they could do this is that the current governor signed a law permitting this level of access to decision-making by the state elections board, and he hasn't decried it.
But in terms of practical effects, if we do not certify elections by December 17, this could throw Georgia's Electoral College votes to the U.S. House of Representatives, which could mean that voters are denied their choice. And that's deeply dangerous, and it's not happening in isolation. This is the same law that also permitted mass challenges that Governor Kemp signed, and it allows individuals to do mass challenges of voters to possibly pull them off of the rolls up and to election day. And so we have to look at the totality of voter suppression tactics that are at play in Georgia that are being repeated across the country.
SHAPIRO: I mean, you're saying that there has been voter suppression for a decade, but according to the Brennan Center for Justice, in 28 states, voters will face restrictions this November that were not in place in the last presidential election. So in practical terms, what does that mean for individuals across the U.S. going to cast their ballots in this election?
ABRAMS: For most states, the laws have changed because of the outcome of the 2020 election. Unfortunately, in states where restrictions were in place and the candidate - when Trump didn't win, there were states that made it even harder to vote. And then there are states that used the success of the 2020 election in terms of expanding access, not in terms of outcome, but more people being able to vote to expand the number of voters. And so we know New York is one of those states.
Unfortunately, a lot of the battleground states have seen restriction. So Arizona - there's a current lawsuit to restrict who can actually participate in the presidential election. And we know that, unfortunately - I mean, and both parties have engaged in different years in these tactics. In recent years, it's been primarily Republicans. The RNC and the Trump, you know, acolytes - and they're both the same and different - have used voter suppression tactics as a methodology of winning elections.
SHAPIRO: Well, there are two things. There is keeping people from accessing the vote, and then there is after people have cast their votes, calling the outcome into question. Do you expect more chaos in the 2024 election than there was in the 2020 election?
ABRAMS: Yes. And let's be clear. Voter suppression is three pieces. Can you register and stay on the rolls? Can you cast a ballot? And does the ballot get counted? What they are ginning up is that third piece. They are ginning up, does the ballot get counted? Because if you delay certification, you are delaying the counting of the ballot.
SHAPIRO: In 2020, the Trump campaign challenged the outcome in many states.
ABRAMS: Yes.
SHAPIRO: And in every case, the judiciary said, this is a false claim. We do not side with you. The outcome is legitimate. Do you have confidence that the same will be true this year?
ABRAMS: I have confidence we will eventually get there. The problem is the timing. If you can delay certification - there's a hard and fast deadline of December 17. And so this is not about denying it. It's about delaying it, because sometimes delay has the effect of denial. And that's what we should be concerned about.
We also have election officials who are under much more stress and much more duress because of the intervening laws that have made it easier to challenge them, harder for them to protect themselves. And unfortunately, they are the ones we have to rely on to get us to where we need to be, and they may not have the protections they need for that outcome.
SHAPIRO: I also want to ask you about Georgia politics, because the most dramatic political story in the state right now is within the Republican Party, where former President Trump attacked the Republican governor, Brian Kemp, went after his wife, called him disloyal. Do you think that is just a sideshow or could that actually matter in the election?
ABRAMS: I think all of these conversations matter, but I think it's critical that we not conflate voter suppression - which is indeed the bread and butter of Brian Kemp - with the invective of Donald Trump, which is he's mad at anyone who isn't completely loyal. Both things can happen at the same time.
SHAPIRO: Right. So setting aside the voter ballot access question, do you think that a feud between the governor of Georgia and the Republican presidential candidate redounds to Democrats' advantage, or is it just noise?
ABRAMS: I think it can redound to the benefit of some, but I think we are dismissing voters' intellect if we think that a feud alone can determine the outcome of an election.
SHAPIRO: In our last minute, I just want to ask about the personal significance to you of having Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket, seeing her officially accept her party's nomination for president tomorrow night. What will that mean to you?
ABRAMS: It means this is a nation that believes that diversity, equity and inclusion is a real thing, meaning that...
SHAPIRO: That's become a dirty word or phrase in some circles.
ABRAMS: It's become a dirty word and phrase to those who do not like competition. Kamala Harris is going to be the nominee for the highest office in the land, one of the most powerful jobs in the world, and she has done it because she has been able to compete. And we, for so many years in this country, did not allow competition to exist. She is proof that gender and race and national origin, that all of those pieces can be used to lift us up and not used to diminish who we are.
SHAPIRO: Voting activist Stacey Abrams, speaking with us here at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. Thank you very much.
ABRAMS: It has been a delight. Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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