MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Today marks the fifth day of mass protests across Israel. This follows the killing of six hostages being held by Hamas. And what protesters are calling for is for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to reach a deal - a cease-fire deal that would involve Hamas releasing the remaining hostages and Israel withdrawing troops from the Gaza-Egypt border. Well, that last piece has been a sticking point for Netanyahu. And some of the families of hostages said this past weekend that the hostage killings are, quote, "a direct result of Netanyahu's thwarting of the deals." We're going to examine that with Anshel Pfeffer, Israel correspondent for The Economist and author of a biography of Benjamin Netanyahu. Anshel Pfeffer joins me now from Jerusalem. Welcome.
ANSHEL PFEFFER: Thanks for having me.
KELLY: Let's start with those protests I mentioned, because there have been many protests, of course, in Israel since October 7. Does this time, these protests - after the killing of these latest hostages, does it feel different?
PFEFFER: Well, the scope, the scale of the protests, I think, the level of the anger - it's directed at Netanyahu in a very angry way in the sense that he is being blamed almost for the death of these six hostages and for putting the lives of dozens of hostages still being held in captivity in Gaza. That is taking these protests to another level that we haven't really seen since the war began on October 7.
KELLY: You said the level of anger feels different this time. And what does that feel like? You've been out on the streets talking to people. Describe it.
PFEFFER: Well, it's just very direct accusations - people even carrying signs saying Netanyahu is a murderer, or Netanyahu's - or the blood of the hostages is on Netanyahu's hand. And what's making this much more difficult is that even though Hamas is also assigned - and Israelis' blame Hamas as well, there's a lack of trust in Netanyahu's motives here. And that really is what's stoking the anger more than anything else.
KELLY: And what is his stated reason for that? - because I will note, aside from domestic pressure on Netanyahu to end the war, even his own defense minister, Yoav Gallant, is publicly urging Netanyahu, pull the troops out of the Philadelphi Corridor that separates Egypt and Gaza. So why does Netanyahu say, absolutely not; we can't do it?
PFEFFER: Well, it's not just Gallant. It's also the security chiefs, the IDF chief of staff, the heads of Mossad and Shin Bet. So basically, it's Netanyahu against the consensus of the Israeli security establishment. And his explanation is the Philadelphi Corridor is a porous border. It's the oxygen tube of Hamas' work and will enable Hamas to smuggle in weapons. And if Israeli troops are not there, then Hamas will be able to smuggle in weapons yet again and, as he says, carry out another October 7. And when Netanyahu has been challenged by journalists saying, well, your generals, the security chiefs, your defenses ministers think otherwise, he said, well, they were wrong in the past, and it's my responsibility to make this decision.
KELLY: I want to ask about one more piece of this. The Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth reporting yesterday that even before the killing of these hostages way back in July, Netanyahu was adding demands to cease-fire deals at the 11th hour. What's the reaction to that reporting? Will this be seen as evidence that Netanyahu has, in fact, been avoiding a deal?
PFEFFER: Well, this is one of the main reasons why there is this level of distrust amongst many Israelis towards Netanyahu's motives. And the fact that not just Yedioth Ahronoth, but also other news organizations have reported that there were conditions added after the end of April. He basically handed Joe Biden the proposal for a cease-fire and then seems somehow to be backtracking, adding conditions.
And the whole issue of the Philadelphi Corridor is one that only emerged in May, when the Israeli army finally did capture the Philadelphi Corridor. So the questions are, if the Philadelphi Corridor is so crucial to Israel's security, why was that left to a very late stage in the ground maneuver of the war in Gaza? Why didn't Israel begin in one of the earlier stages of the war? And Netanyahu hasn't given a convincing answer for that. And the fact that he chose only to give the order to take the corridor in May and, the same time, also made that into a new condition does add a lot of question marks on Netanyahu's motives.
KELLY: So does he survive this?
PFEFFER: He's a survivor. No one has made so many political comebacks. No one has, you know, stayed so long in a leadership position not just in Israel, but, I think, in most democratic systems. So I think we'll have to leave that question open.
KELLY: Anshel Pfeffer of The Economist. He's written a biography on the Israeli prime minister titled "Bibi: The Turbulent Life And Times Of Benjamin Netanyahu." Thank you.
PFEFFER: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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