AILSA CHANG, HOST:
It has been one month since the country of Venezuela descended into crisis with a contentious presidential election. The incumbent president, Nicolas Maduro, declared himself the winner, but his opposition points to their meticulous work counting votes and receipts from thousands of voting machines that they say prove otherwise. Maduro has been steadfast in his refusal to acknowledge this evidence, despite pressure and skepticism from other governments around the world. I'm joined now by assistant secretary of state for the Western hemisphere, Brian A. Nichols, to discuss the situation in Venezuela. Welcome.
BRIAN NICHOLS: It's great to be with you. Thank you for having me.
CHANG: It's great to have you. So what level of confidence does the U.S. have that Maduro did not prevail in this election?
NICHOLS: Total confidence - there's overwhelming evidence that is publicly available for anyone to look at and analyze that shows that Edmundo Gonzalez, the opposition candidate, won by a more than 2 to 1 margin over Nicolas Maduro.
CHANG: So we can say with certainty, based on evidence, that this was a stolen election, correct?
NICHOLS: Well, there's no doubt about that. And it's fascinating because when you look at the run-up to the actual vote, you had the Maduro regime disqualify two opposition candidates before finally accepting a third. You have a U.N. panel of experts stating unequivocally that access to the media, travel, campaign financing did not conform to any level of equity or Venezuelan law. You have the Carter Center coming out saying the same thing, you know, civil society organizations in Venezuela also observing those things before the vote. And you have every receipt from 84% of the polling places that is available online with a QR code that cannot be faked that demonstrates exactly who was there.
CHANG: OK.
NICHOLS: So...
CHANG: OK.
NICHOLS: ...That information's widely available.
CHANG: So if there's no question as to the actual outcome of the election, the next question is what should be done about this? The U.S. has tried a range of tactics to support Maduro's opponents with both carrots and sticks - right? - like sometimes easing sanctions to get Maduro to even hold these elections. Other times, heavy sticks, like severe sanctions to get him to budge at various times - nothing seems to work. What do you think the U.S. should do at this point?
NICHOLS: Well, I think maintaining an international consensus - and we've had dozens and dozens of countries already express their concerns about this vote and press for transparency from Venezuelan electoral officials, which they've never provided, and to move toward a phase of negotiation and transition in a way that reflects the will of the Venezuelan people. And that means continuing to support efforts by front-line states like Colombia and Brazil, working through the Organization of American States, the leading regional institution. Today, they met and discussed the situation in Venezuela, previously passed a resolution urging transparency and respect for democracy and human rights.
CHANG: I get expressing concerns for transparency and concerns about democracy, but what about the possibility of more sanctions? How are you thinking about that? - because U.S. sanctions have contributed to a pretty devastating collapse of Venezuela's economy, which has fueled a regional migration crisis, right? Like, current polls show that 40% of people in Venezuela say they are considering leaving. It seems like it's only going to get worse. Is the U.S. considering slapping sanctions back on Venezuela at this point?
NICHOLS: Well, we don't preview our sanctions actions, but we will continue to enforce our laws. We will hold accountable those people who have repressed the population, who have subverted democracy, so I think you have seen we've already said that. And I think equally important - we will work with our international partners to build an even stronger consensus in favor of democracy in Venezuela.
CHANG: I mean, there was so much hope going into this election, right? The opposition was able to deploy thousands of volunteers to closely monitor and record the votes. A record number of people showed up to vote, but there has been a brutal crackdown since then. Despite all these concerns about democracy being expressed, there are reports of people being jailed indefinitely for being part of the opposition. Many journalists say they can only work anonymously. What does this actually mean for the possibility of democracy in Venezuela?
NICHOLS: Well, democracy in Venezuela was already in critical condition before this election. And the fact that we've seen civil society members, opposition political party figures, ordinary campaign workers jailed - and now we've seen the reports, which I think you've probably seen as well, of children, of minors being thrown in jail for participating in peaceful protests or advocating for their basic rights. That's deeply disturbing and has already been criticized by both regional and international human rights organizations and institutions.
CHANG: So what's your realistic outlook at this point? The Maduro government continuing on indefinitely?
NICHOLS: I think there should be, and we hope to encourage, a dialogue between the Maduro side and the Democratic opposition to talk about a transition, and we think that's an important step to move this process forward,
CHANG: How can there be a transition if Maduro will not acknowledge he lost the election?
NICHOLS: Well, his party still - even if they lose the presidency or leave the presidency - they've lost it in the vote - they still have a majority of the governors of the states of Venezuela. They still have a majority in the National Assembly. So there's going to have to be some type of power sharing. But this is a conversation that needs to be led and guided by Venezuelans. While we want to encourage and support that in the international community, it's the Venezuelans themselves that need to be the protagonists.
CHANG: Assistant secretary of state for the Western hemisphere, Brian A. Nichols, thank you very much.
NICHOLS: It's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you.
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