TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we wrap up our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons with writer and director Spike Lee and with actor Samuel L. Jackson, who's appeared in several Spike Lee films, including "Do The Right Thing," "Jungle Fever," "Mo' Better Blues" and "School Daze."
We'll start with Spike Lee. His first feature was the now-classic 1986 film, "She's Gotta Have It," which earned him a place as a central figure in independent cinema and in Black cinema. Thirty-some years later, he adapted the film into an expanded 10-part series of the same name, which is still available on Netflix. That was the occasion of my most recent interview with Spike Lee, which we recorded in 2017.
The central character in "She's Gotta Have It" is Nola Darling, a young artist who loves sex but isn't interested in a committed relationship. She's seeing three men, each a different type, but each wants her to himself. In the 1986 original, Spike Lee played one of Nola Darling's boyfriends, the B-boy Mars Blackmon, who's deep into hip-hop culture. I asked Spike Lee to describe the character.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
SPIKE LEE: Well, Mars Blackmon is the original B-boy, the original sneakerhead. He wears a chain around his neck that says Mars. He was wearing the fresh Air Jordans. We call them FOBs - fresh out the box. I mean, Mars is just crazy. I got the - it's funny. I asked my grandmother. I didn't have a name for this character, and I asked my grandma, who lived to be 100 years old. My grandmother put me through Morehouse and NYU and gave me the seed money for "She's Gotta Have It." Not that she was rich - she just saved the Social Security checks for 50 years. She taught art. And I was the first grandchild.
But I asked, had you a name? She said I had a crazy uncle named Mars. Said - I said, bang - all right, that's what it's going to be. His name is Mars. So the only reason why I played in the film is because we didn't have any money to pay for an actor to play Mars. So my whole life changed after that - not just because of the film but because two individuals, Jim Riswold and Bill Davenport at the Wieden+Kennedy advertising agency - their client was Nike. They saw the film and got the idea to pair my character, Mars Blackmon, with Michael Jordan, and that changed the world.
GROSS: So I get the impression from this that you never planned on acting?
LEE: Nope.
GROSS: Well, you did...
LEE: I don't even like it, really, to tell the truth. I don't even do it anymore.
GROSS: Why don't you like it?
LEE: 'Cause I'm not an actor.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: OK.
LEE: But the pop-up - Mars Blackmon became so popular that, you know, people wanted me seen in other stuff. So I played Half-Pint and Shorty. My best performance, if I may say, of my limited acting skills is Mookie in "Do The Right Thing." I was good in that one.
GROSS: So I want to hear a - I want to play a scene with you in it from the original 1986 "She's Gotta Have It." And this is a scene where it's the first time Nola invites your character, Mars, up to her apartment. And Mars is surprised at how spacious and nice it is and how much of her artwork is around. So here's the scene.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SHE'S GOTTA HAVE IT")
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Dag. You know, Nola, it took you long enough to invite me up here.
TRACY CAMILLA JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) I don't let just anybody up here.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Am I supposed to be anybody?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) You're not anyone. That's why you're here.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Yeah, it took long enough. That's nice.
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Thank you. My birthday is May 19. You know what that is?
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) The 19 of May - am I supposed to know?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) You're supposed to know.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) I'm supposed to know?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Yes.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Why?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) It was Malcolm's birthday.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) The 19?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Uh-huh.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Of May?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Mmm hmm.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Yeah?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Yeah.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) That's cool. He was down by law. Yeah. So this whole place is yours, huh?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Whole place.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) I likes. I likes. What's the rent?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) It's cheap.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Yeah?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Yep.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) You know, we could put a divider right here, and you'll have a roommate - me - and never know I'm here.
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) You're right. I'll never know. How come every time I let a guy up here, the first thing they want to do is move in?
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Well, you work, you got a nice crib and you're fine.
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Hmm. What makes you think I want somebody to take care of?
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) I didn't say that. You know, I didn't say that. I pay my own way. I'm not looking for no meal ticket. Yeah. So what do you do? What's your job?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) I'm a layout-paste-up artist. I do mechanics for magazines, you know?
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what that s*** is.
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) There's something about you.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) About me?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Uh-huh.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Good or bad?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling, laughter) I haven't figured it out yet.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) You'll let me know, right?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) You'll be the first to know.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) You'll let me know?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Mmm hmm.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) You'll let me know?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Yeah.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) You'll let me know?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Sure.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) You'll let me know?
JOHNS: (As Nola Darling) Yeah.
LEE: (As Mars Blackmon) Good.
GROSS: (Laughter) That's Spike Lee as Mars Blackmon in "Do The Right Thing." So your character, as we heard in that scene, repeats certain lines over and over - most famously, please, baby, please. How did you come up with that kind of repetition for your character?
LEE: I couldn't remember what the next line was (laughter).
GROSS: Oh, seriously?
LEE: True (laughter). I kid you not.
GROSS: Oh, so that's why you kept repeating?
LEE: I couldn't remember what the next line was, so I was going to keep repeating the line that I'm on (laughter).
GROSS: That's hilarious 'cause it's such a kind of quirky, funny characteristic. So it really works.
LEE: Well, it's an accident (laughter).
GROSS: So Brooklyn is so important in your life and in your movies and on your hats (laughter).
LEE: Oh, can I just...
GROSS: Yeah, go ahead.
LEE: ...Say something real quick?
GROSS: Yeah.
LEE: It's the Republic of Brooklyn.
GROSS: OK.
LEE: The Republic.
GROSS: You know, it's so funny.
LEE: The Republic.
GROSS: I grew up in Brooklyn, and it was so...
LEE: Where?
GROSS: Sheepshead Bay.
LEE: Did you go to high school in Brooklyn?
GROSS: Yes.
LEE: Where?
GROSS: Sheepshead Bay.
LEE: I went to John Dewey.
GROSS: Where was John Dewey?
LEE: Coney Island.
GROSS: Oh, I used to go to Coney Island a lot.
LEE: Yeah. And you went to Nathan's?
GROSS: Oh, absolutely.
LEE: You went on the Cyclone?
GROSS: Yeah, but not a lot. It was a little...
LEE: (Laughter). The Wonder Wheel?
GROSS: ...Much for me. Yeah, the Wonder Wheel.
LEE: The Wonder Wheel. Yeah.
GROSS: And then all the bumper cars.
LEE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
GROSS: Yeah. So anyways, Brooklyn was not - no one was claiming that Brooklyn was kind of hip or cool or a republic, that I was aware of, when I was growing up (laughter). And so it's just interesting to see what Brooklyn has come to signify. Like - so that's quite a change. So when you were young, before you lived in Fort Greene, you lived in another neighborhood - right? - Cobble Hill?
LEE: Yes, Cobble Hill. The Lees were the first Black family to move into Cobble Hill. Cobble Hill, up to that point, had been historically Italian American working-class neighborhood.
GROSS: And why did your parents move there, knowing they'd be the only African Americans in the neighborhood?
LEE: Oh, it was a - my mother, you know, who was running things, said, you know, we need to get - my mother always wanted a brownstone. So we didn't own. We rented two floors in a brownstone, Warren Street - between Henry Street and Clinton Street - in Cobble Hill. And then my mother said, you know, we've got to buy a brownstone. So we bought our brownstone on Washington Park between Myrtle and Willoughby in 1968 for, like, $45,000. Back then, the realtors wouldn't even use the name Fort Greene. They would just say, Downtown vicinity.
GROSS: So when you were probably very young when your parents moved to Cobble Hill and it was an Italian American neighborhood, what was that like for you as a young African American boy?
LEE: Well, we got called the N-word for, like, two weeks. And then, when it finally dawned on them there were not going to be hundreds of Black families following the Lees and that they was going to go Black all overnight, then we were just like any other kid. Two weeks after that, the N-word - we were just - a lot of my friends today are these guys I grew up - you know, in Cobble Hill at a very young age, especially the Tuccis (ph) - Louie (ph) and Joe (ph) Tucci - shout-out.
GROSS: (Laughter) So what was the school like? Was the school mostly white?
LEE: Well, I went to public school - PS 29. After a couple of years, you know, some Puerto Ricans moved in - into the neighborhood. But it was - I had a great, wonderful childhood. And I'm sorry, I'm glad I was a child - I mean, we - forget these video games. We played street games. We weren't doing - just sitting in front of a television. We were playing stickball, stoop ball, softball, two-hand touch, Johnny on the Pony, Ringolevio, down the sewers. I mean, we just played...
GROSS: Down in the sewer, was that the last one?
LEE: Down - it's a top game. You know, spinning tops?
GROSS: Yeah.
LEE: Well, the sewers had a hole in it, and the goal was to knock the other guy's...
GROSS: (Laughter).
LEE: ...Top down the sewer.
GROSS: (Laughter).
LEE: I mean, we were imaginative.
GROSS: We never played that one (laughter).
LEE: It was creative. We made up games. We played on the streets. We were running around. There was physicality - I mean, running bases. I mean, we had fun. And the summertime was the best because it wasn't - it didn't get dark till, like, 9:30. So you didn't have to come home until it got dark. So you leave the morning - you leave the house in the morning, and you didn't have to show up till it got dark. Oh, it was joy.
GROSS: And your father was an artist - a jazz musician, bass player, composer, also plays...
LEE: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Some piano. So what did you learn about what it means to be an artist and try to support a family from watching your father?
LEE: Oh. Well, I learned that there's nothing poetic about being a starving artist. I knew that. And I knew that I wanted to as - to use one of the greatest lines from "The Godfather," I wanted to wet my beak. If my films made money, I wanted to be able to get my fair share of the money that's being made from my artwork. I just knew that - I just saw my father struggle - great, great, great musician - that there's nothing cute about being, you know, poor. At one time, my father was a leading jazz bassist - jazz folk bass - played with Bob Dylan, Judy Collins. That's my father on Peter, Paul and Mary's "Puff, The Magic Dragon," Theo Bikel, Odetta - all those things.
And when Bob Dylan decided that he wanted to go electric, everybody else in the folk world did, too. And so, my father, to this day, has never played one Fender bass or one electric instrument ever. And up to that point, my mother didn't have to work because my father was most - he was in demand. But when he made the decision that he was not going to play electric bass, my mother had to become a teacher. And, you know, in a lot of ways, I looked at my father's integrity. But on the other hand, he had five kids. But to him, it didn't matter. He wasn't going to play electric bass.
GROSS: Did you resent that? Did you want him to play electric bass so that the family...
LEE: No. No.
GROSS: ...Would have more money?
LEE: Nah. And I'm just very fortunate that I was able to use the great talents of my father - he scored all my films. In NYU film school, he did the score for "She's Gotta Have It," "School Daze," a great, great, great score for "Do The Right Thing," "Mo' Better Blues." So I was very happy that it came around so I was able to employ my father.
GROSS: What kind of music did your father introduce you to?
LEE: Jazz.
GROSS: And you have shout-outs to jazz in...
LEE: I mean, here's...
GROSS: ...The series. Yeah.
LEE: ...The thing, though. Growing up in my house, we had to sneak to listen to Motown and the Beatles. My father would hear that. He said, turn that bad music off.
GROSS: (Laughter).
LEE: It was jazz. The only music that could be played out loud when he was in the house was jazz. And if it wasn't jazz, you had to turn that mess off, as he would say. Turn that mess off.
GROSS: (Laughter) Did he introduce you to Johnny Hartman, who I think I heard in the new version?
LEE: Oh, yes. My father, I mean, he didn't play with them, but he knew everybody. Everybody knew him. I mean...
GROSS: Yeah, yeah.
LEE: ...I'll give an example. Late in his life, I did a video for Miles Davis. It was called "Tutu." And the album...
GROSS: Oh, you did the video for "Tutu."
LEE: ...Was called "Tutu."
GROSS: Oh, yeah. OK.
LEE: Yes. And the first thing - he said, Spike, I know your father. I love your father's work, so I'm not going to curse you out.
(LAUGHTER)
LEE: First of all, it'd have been an honor for Miles Davis to call me MFer. That was his favorite word. So I wish he would have called me MFer. But he said, you know what? I know your father's Bill Lee, a great musician, great composer, so I'm going to leave you alone. True story. I still think about that today.
GROSS: My guest is film director Spike Lee. We'll continue our conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF CARSIE BLANTON SONG, "IF YOU WANT ME TO")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2017 interview with film director Spike Lee. Earlier in our conversation, he was talking about growing up in Cobble Hill, a neighborhood in Brooklyn.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: So when your family moved to Fort Greene, you were probably - what? - around 10?
LEE: Eleven.
GROSS: Eleven. OK. So what was it like for you to move to a predominantly African American neighborhood after living in Cobble Hill?
LEE: It was great. Fort Greene - there was Black and Puerto Rican. It was great because we were living - we weren't renting anymore. We had a big, old house right across the street from Fort Greene Park.
GROSS: Did you ever take piano lessons, since your father had a piano and played?
LEE: Eh, for a minute. The one that was a really good pianist was my brother, David. And it was my - his piano teacher was in Harlem. So it was - since I'm the oldest, I had to drag his a** on a subway every Saturday and take him for piano lessons. Boy, did I hate doing that (laughter). Do I have to do it? Yes, you do. You're the oldest. Back in the day, when your parents told you to do something, you had to do it. There's no negotiating, none of this stuff. You had to do it.
GROSS: Have you been that way as a father?
LEE: Nope (laughter). I mean, nowadays, I'd be sent to jail (laughter).
GROSS: What do you mean?
LEE: If you hit a kid, you go to jail.
GROSS: Oh, oh, oh. Did your parents hit you?
LEE: Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn't murder, but if you said something, my mother said, I'll slap the Black off you (laughter). And it was worse because, like many Black families in the North, when summertime came, your parents shipped your Black a** down South to get a break. So you would spend the summer down South with your grandparents. And down South, they don't play. They get the switch. You know what a switch is?
GROSS: Mmm hmm.
LEE: It was brutal because they make you choose the switch you get beat with. And if you choose a too-little switch, they'll get - they'll pick their own switch that was three times the length of the small one you picked. Whoo (ph), boy (laughter).
GROSS: What earned you getting hit with a switch?
LEE: Oh, it didn't matter. They didn't like something, you had to - go get that switch, son.
GROSS: So was that...
LEE: What'd I do (laughter)?
GROSS: Was that an effective form of punishment for you, or was - did it just, like, really make you angry and want to rebel more?
LEE: No, no. That switch hurt. Whoo, Lord. And it would be so hot. And there was no air conditioning. And those mosquitoes would eat you alive. Oh, my God (laughter). And then we - everyone made fun of us because we'd talk different. And I - we couldn't understand what people were saying. I remember one summer, we came down South with afros 'cause afros took a while - everything takes a while to get down South.
(LAUGHTER)
LEE: And when we got off - when they saw us with afros, they looked at us like we were three-headed Martians.
GROSS: Were there things you were told you couldn't do in Alabama because of racism? Was the line different than it was...
LEE: We never...
GROSS: ...In Brooklyn?
LEE: See, there weren't any white people in Snow Hill, Ala., so it was not like we were in Selma or Montgomery or Birmingham. We were in Snow - we were in the sticks. So we rarely ever saw white folks when we went down South. So people might call me Mr. Brooklyn, but my parents were from the South. I was born in Atlanta, Ga., spent many summers there and also went to college in Atlanta.
GROSS: In Morehouse?
LEE: Yeah, my father went to Morehouse, my grandfather went to Morehouse and my mother and grandmother went to Spelman - these two historic Black schools that are across the street from each other. In fact, my grandmother lived to be a 100 years old. I know I said that before. I'm being redundant. But her grandmother was a slave, yet she had a college degree. So I come from a long line of edumacated (ph) Black folks (laughter).
GROSS: Were your parents always stressing the importance of education...
LEE: Oh, yes. I mean...
GROSS: ...When you were growing up?
LEE: Yes, educators. Educators.
GROSS: So what did they...
LEE: That's why...
GROSS: ...Do to make sure that you got a good education?
LEE: Well, the best thing my parents did - not just for me, but my siblings - that was - they exposed us to so much stuff. And it paid off. My mother was dragging me to Broadway plays, off-Broadway plays, museums. Man, I didn't want to go to that stuff. I wanted to run up and down the streets. But every - my mother would take me and my siblings. I mean, she was dragging us while we were screaming. But every time we came home on the subway, we would say, you know what? That was good. The reason why...
GROSS: What's one of the shows that you saw that you really loved?
LEE: Oh, one thing was memorable. My mother took me to see "Bye Bye Birdie" at Radio City Music Hall Easter Show.
GROSS: So this was the movie?
LEE: The movie. And the reason why the opening credit sequence to "Do The Right Thing" where Rosie Perez is dancing - that came from Ann-Margret dancing in the beginning of "Bye Bye Birdie."
GROSS: Oh, that's great (laughter).
LEE: But here's the thing now. My mother was - so my love of cinema came from my mother. My father hated movies. And so I - since I was the oldest, I was my mother's movie date.
GROSS: (Laughter).
LEE: My mother always wanted to introduce me to Martin Scorsese. She took me to see "Mean Streets" when that film came out. I was like, Mom, are you a...
GROSS: What impact did that have on you?
LEE: (Laughter) I said, Mom, this movie's crazy (laughter). What - if you - if somebody could Google what year "Mean Streets" came out, I was definitely underage to see that film. And I've told Martin Scorsese that story many times, and he laughs.
GROSS: Spike Lee, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.
LEE: Well, thank you so much. And again, I'm a fan.
GROSS: Oh, thank you.
LEE: And it's been a minute, so let's do it every time I have a project, all right?
GROSS: Let's do it again. Absolutely.
My interview with Spike Lee was recorded in 2017. Coming up, we conclude our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons, with actor Samuel L. Jackson, who's been in several of Spike Lee's movies. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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