SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
Donald Trump says he won't take part in another debate. He thinks he's done two debates and won them both.
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DONALD TRUMP: When a prizefighter loses a fight - you've seen a lot of fights, right? - the first words out of that fighter's mouth is, I want a rematch. I want a rematch. And that's what she said. I want a rematch.
SIMON: Speaking, of course, about Vice President Kamala Harris this week. Ron Elving joins us. Good morning, Ron.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: To continue the prizefight analogy for a moment, and to quote Roberto Duran in 1980 when he quit in his fight against Sugar Ray Leonard, is Donald Trump saying no mas, no more?
ELVING: No mas, indeed. That was Duran asking for mercy, as you recall. Trump insists he's the one being merciful. He says he won the debate with Harris in, quote, "all the polls," unquote. And he cites one that he carried 98% to 2. He's referring, of course, to surveys of certain online users - polls with no discernible scientific basis, sometimes known as junk polls. Actual pollsters use randomized samples, not hothouse feedback loops.
Independent polling by a wide variety of media has shown Harris the winner Tuesday night, usually with Trump getting less than 40%. And now, these are polls - bear in mind - about who won that debate, not about the voting decision in November. That's a very different question, and those questions still show the race basically a tie.
SIMON: Ron, to be fair, doesn't the country pretty much already know where both candidates stand and where they differ and, therefore, didn't need another debate?
ELVING: Most of the country, yes. But in the past, when presidents have done poorly in a first debate, they have wanted another and benefited from it. We saw that with Ronald Reagan, saw it again with Barack Obama. Trump may not be so sure it would do him that much good to go around again. And as for the rest of us, we'd always like to learn more about these candidates, see them under pressure, especially Kamala Harris. She's not as well-known as some have been in the past.
The first debate was important because so much of the country did not have a keen sense of Harris. Lots of folks didn't really remember her debating Mike Pence in the running mate debate in 2020 or competing in the Democratic debates in 2019. So the first debate certainly meant a lot, and a second might not mean as much. But we can probably live with what we have now.
SIMON: And Trump's been getting a lot of criticism from fellow Republicans for taking advice and traveling with social media personality Laura Loomer. She has described herself as a proud Islamophobe and a white nationalist. What does this affiliation say about his campaign?
ELVING: It suggests there's no one in charge of this campaign other than Trump himself. He's had some strong managers in the past who helped weed out problem personalities among the hangers-on and protect the candidate himself. Loomer was traveling with Trump for 9/11 events. But just in the last 24 hours, Trump has largely disowned her and her more extreme views, putting a post on his Truth Social account.
SIMON: There are also strains between Donald Trump and House Republicans over a temporary spending bill. I don't know how many times I've asked you this question over the years. Are we facing another government shutdown?
SIMON: Probably not. But Congress has not passed all the spending bills for the new fiscal year that starts at the end of this month. They need to pass some kind of a stopgap, or agencies will start shutting down like they did in 2019. Most House members think that would hurt their own reelection prospects in November, but Trump wants them to attach a measure to ban voting by noncitizens.
Now, one more time, voting in federal elections by noncitizens is already illegal and subject to heavy penalties. But Trump insists - without evidence - that it's a big problem, and it cost him the election in 2020. So House members need to placate him while also keeping the lights on in the government. So be grateful you're not House Speaker Mike Johnson right now. He might need Democrats to help keep the government open, and that's what cost the last Republican speaker his job just a year ago. Better buckle up, Scott. It's going to be a bumpy fall.
SIMON: Well, glad to have you along on the ride. NPR's Ron Elving, thanks so much for being with us.
ELVING: Thank you, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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