MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Reporting all this week in Georgia, a battleground state, where questions are mounting over when, over whether, we're going to know who won the presidential election here. The state election board, which is controlled by Republicans, has been busy the last few months changing the rules for certifying November's results. That has drawn the attention of Brad Raffensperger, Georgia secretary of state, also a Republican. He calls the last-minute changes misguided and says they will delay election results. Well, Raffensperger has agreed to take our questions here in his office at the state Capitol. Brad Raffensperger, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: Glad to be with you.
KELLY: The rules changes by the state election board are making headlines nationally, so let's start there. What is the danger that you are seeing?
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, state law requires all counties to certify the Monday after the election by end of business day. And that is a shall, so that needs to happen. And so we want to make sure that you don't place late-minute changes that somehow would delay the process.
KELLY: And can you elaborate on how you see these last-minute changes potentially holding things up?
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, No. 1, what they're talking about is breaking open the ballot boxes. Typically - people need to understand that when you finish the election that night, you run the tape, and you get your results. And that's what goes back to the county headquarters, along with all the machines that were used, you know, at the county with the ballots. And they're - we maintain chain of custody. So no one is opening those up, you know, at the local precincts. You know, with that rule...
KELLY: People vote. The polls close.
RAFFENSPERGER: The polls close.
KELLY: The boxes are sealed and secured.
RAFFENSPERGER: The boxes are sealed...
KELLY: Yeah. OK.
RAFFENSPERGER: ...And secured. So what they're talking about is you'd actually, now, you know, open up the ballot storage boxes, pull the ballots out on the table and then just proceed to count how many ballots do you have there. But then they want to go - the next check is in - open the ballot box, lay it all out on the table and make sure that that count of the paper marries up - you know, it's the same as all the other...
KELLY: Same number of votes as there were voters.
RAFFENSPERGER: Exactly. And...
KELLY: What's wrong with that?
RAFFENSPERGER: Because it takes time. But also it adds a whole element of a break in chain of custody. Instead of doing it in a secure warehouse and under the observation of the county election director and, you know, their permanent team of people and, obviously, Republican and Democrat and independent observers, it would be happening at the precinct level. It's just going to delay it. So instead of getting the results done by 9:30,10 o'clock, things like that, it could last all the way into 2, 3 o'clock in the morning. And what I've said is I don't want to see, you know, Georgia start looking like Detroit.
KELLY: It sounds a little bit like a mess, if I may - with rules being changed last minute, lawsuits pending. How much uncertainty does it introduce seven weeks and counting till the election?
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, I said several weeks ago, they're a mess.
KELLY: Can you elaborate?
RAFFENSPERGER: The counties had been doing poll worker training and working with, really, political party observers on all the existing rules, regulations that we had long-standing. And so they've been working on that. Ballots have all been printed. And now we're going to - we're ready to really start sending out the absentee ballots. We've received applications, and they'll be coming in over the next few weeks. And so that's the other process of this. We're actually in a live election now. And so it's one of those things - this should have been done you know, months ago, not last-minute changes.
KELLY: I want to take you back to January 2, 2021. Donald Trump has lost Georgia. He has lost the 2020 election. And Trump and his team call you, and he tells you, you got it wrong, that the people of Georgia are angry because you can't, quote, "find votes for him."
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DONALD TRUMP: And there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, you've recalculated because the 2,236 in absentee ballots - I mean, they're all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms, law firms, etc. And even if you cut them in half, cut them in half and cut them in half again, it's more votes than we need.
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.
KELLY: I'm revisiting that call now, in the fall of 2024, because you and other officials here in Georgia stood on principle and refused to bow to immense pressure after the 2020 election. But in an ideal world, we shouldn't have to count on that. There should be guardrails. There should be institutional checks protecting our democracy. My question to you today is, are there? Have we done enough?
RAFFENSPERGER: I do my job. Every day, I do my job. And every day, everyone that holds elected office needs to do their job. It's as simple as that.
KELLY: You are telling me you are confident that Georgia is going to have a free and fair election in 2024. Are you confident that we will know who won the presidential election in Georgia in a timely manner?
RAFFENSPERGER: It all gets down to how close it is. If it's a Florida, you know, 2000, when it's a 400-vote difference...
KELLY: Hanging chads.
RAFFENSPERGER: ...Then you have to - it's not so much that. It's that you have to make sure that all your UOCAVA - your overseas military ballots - that come in on a Friday, that they all get tabulated. If there's any other issues.
KELLY: Last thing - your official bio describes you as a lifelong conservative Republican. It's the first line. I'm guessing you would agree that it's in the best interest of our country to have a healthy and strong Republican Party.
RAFFENSPERGER: I agree.
KELLY: You're nodding. Does it worry you to see prominent Republicans - Dick Cheney, Liz Cheney, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales - not just declining to vote for the Republican candidate, but endorsing his Democratic opponent?
RAFFENSPERGER: As secretary of state, I don't wade into the politics during an election cycle. And I don't want to wade into that.
KELLY: Yeah.
RAFFENSPERGER: And so I think people need to remember that they're working for the people, and their job is to do their job. Their job is to follow the law. Their job is to follow the Constitution.
KELLY: Brad Raffensperger is a Republican and secretary of state here in Georgia. We are here all week as part of our series We, The Voters, reporting from swing states throughout the rest of this election season. Secretary Raffensperger, thank you.
RAFFENSPERGER: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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