South Dakota law makers once worked in bipartisan fashion to set gun regulations in the state that restricted concealed carry and guns in the state capitol. Seth Tupper talks about the shift in South Dakota gun regulations that reflects an increase in political polarization.
Jackie Hendry:
Yeah, political polarization go figure that would have an impact on anything. So I think a lot of us would look at South Dakota and the United States history and just kind of that heritage of that gun owning, second amendment, Wild West kind of idea comes to mind. But some of your past reporting shows us that we actually have more of a history of gun restrictions that was supported on a bipartisan basis here in South Dakota. Tell us a little bit about what you found in that history.
Seth Tupper:
Yeah, and in my past reporting, I've taken a couple of deep dives into a couple of issues specifically where we seem to have bipartisan consensus on some gun restrictions that has since fallen apart. And one example of that is the way our state's attitudes and laws have changed in regard to concealed weapons. So when I went back and did the research on this a couple of years ago, I found out that basically for 155 years, the carrying of concealed weapons in Dakota territory and then South Dakota was either banned or allowed only with a permit. We just got rid of that permit requirement a couple of years ago. And the history of this all goes back to the winter of 1864, 65. And that was the year when the territorial legislature passed an outright ban on concealed weapons, meaning you were just forbidden to carry concealed weapons at all.
Jackie Hendry:
Wow.
Seth Tupper:
And that was part of a nationwide trend in response to gun violence where all but a handful of U.S. states had outlawed concealed weapons by about 1900. And there was kind of a widely held opinion among some people that carrying a concealed weapon rather than an open weapon was somehow inherently suspicious. And there was plenty of evidence of that in the newspapers of the day. You think about Deadwood, for example, in 1879, guns were the cause of a lot of violence. And that year the Black Hills Daily Times newspaper editorialized that carrying concealed weapons was a "barbarous and unlawful practice". The Daily Deadwood Pioneer Times, I found another editorial there where that paper said, "The carry of concealed weapons is not suited to an enlightened people and promotes neither good order in the community nor courage in the individual."
And there's the Black Hills Daily Times and another editorial came on the strongest. I love some of this old newspaper writing just for the language, but there's also obviously a message here. They said, "Let the strong social condemnation of our people make this practice infamous, let education quicken the public conscience, let the pulpit do its duty against this un-Christian habit, let the press fearlessly speak it's powerful reprobation that our officers shall feel justified in suppressing this uncivilized and ferocious custom."
Jackie Hendry:
These are some really strong words that are kind of surprising. I know that kind of bucks my stereotype of that period in history, for sure.
Seth Tupper:
Absolutely. And again, it's because at that time somebody carrying a concealed weapon into a town like Deadwood could be trouble obviously. And so, that outright ban on carrying concealed weapons lasted throughout the late 1800's when we became a state and into the early 1900's. And there were often stories and newspapers about arrests and convictions for this crime of carrying a concealed weapon when people got caught doing it. And so the crime was a misdemeanor up until 1917 and then that year the South Dakota legislature actually increased it to a felony. And that change was signed into law by Governor Peter Norbeck, who was a Republican.
Jackie Hendry:
Wow. So we're talking about a hundred years of history here and a lot can happen in that time, as we can see by where we are now. What kind of spurred some of those changes to be completely banning concealed weapons to now allowing them then with a permit?
Seth Tupper:
Yeah, so it appears that a lot of the change started in the prohibition era in the 1920's and 30's. There was bootlegging of alcohol and there were gangs and there was a surge in gun violence all across the country. And that got a lot of attention in the press and the media. So there were some popular calls to ban handguns altogether. And the National Rifle Association, which to that point hadn't done much to resist gun control laws actually mobilized to promote this model legislation as an alternative to banning handguns. And that model legislation allowed people to carry concealed handguns, but said they'd have to get a permit to do it. And so South Dakota comes along, apparently following that lead of the NRA a little bit and passes legislation in 1935 that says, "Okay, we're not banning the carrying of concealed weapons anymore. We're going to allow people to carry them, but you're going to have to have a permit and you're going to have to meet certain qualifications."
In other words, "We're going to have to know that you're safe to carry a concealed weapon and you're not a threat to society." It was a democratic governor, Tom Berry that signed that bill into law.
Jackie Hendry:
Interesting.
Seth Tupper:
And that basically remained the law all the way up to 2019 with some chipping away at it. There were people more on the right side of the political spectrum that wanted to chip away at that and make it easier to carry a concealed weapon. And so there were a lot of modifications passed over the years. But then when the changes really started to happen was when the nation's attention in recent years started turning to all these mass shootings that we've unfortunately had. And there were calls for greater gun restrictions. Well in South Dakota, there was a backlash against those calls in the South Dakota Legislature. In 2019 legislators and Governor Kristi Noem repealed the requirement to have a permit for a concealed weapon. So in other words, for the first time in 155 years at that point, people in South Dakota were now free to conceal weapons on themselves without any restriction, without it being illegal or without needing a permit. And in testimony supporting that repeal Legislator Brock Greenfield said this...
Brock Greenfield:
We're not trying to create a situation in which South Dakota is the Wild West. We're simply trying to create a situation in which we recognize that the second amendment is paramount and will not be infringed.
Jackie Hendry:
There's that Wild West reference again.
Seth Tupper:
Yeah. And that's the irony and one of the reasons I picked that quote is because again, when I went back and did the research after I'd heard him say that in the legislature, if you really go back to the Wild West you find that there was a commonly held opinion among a lot of people that it was necessary to ban concealed weapons at that time to protect public safety. They viewed concealed weapons, a lot of people back then as sort of a menace in society. And there was also testimony, quite a bit of it against repealing the concealed carry permit requirement. Some especially emotional testimony came from Lisa Linnet Carol of Eagle Butte. She said, "The qualifications that were required to get a concealed carry permit were important to her because she felt like it helped prevent the wrong people from carrying concealed guns."
Lisa Lynott-Carroll:
My own experience with gun violence has never left me. Once you feel that cold, hard barrel against your skin and you realize that the person holding it has at that moment full and complete control of whether or not you will live in the next few minutes you truly realize the power of firearms and that you are at the mercy and discretion of those who hold them. I think it's critical to do our best to ensure that those who hold guns are not criminals or prone to violent actions.
Jackie Hendry:
Hmm. And again, that bill did pass. You no longer need a permit to carry a concealed weapon in South Dakota. Seth, I'm curious between this concealed carry in general and then versus being able to bring guns into publicly accessible places, what are some of the differing attitudes you've seen between those two topics and what else have you learned there?
Seth Tupper:
Yeah. And so these two things kind of played out at the same time in the legislature a couple of years ago. Not only the repeal of the concealed carry requirement, which is sometimes called constitutional carry, but also this idea that we'd been banning guns in some places for a long time, but maybe we should loosen that up. And so, although this kind of seems inconceivable now considering the politics around guns in 1993 the South Dakota legislature actually voted to ban guns in the State Capitol and some county courthouses. And that had support from both Democrats and Republicans. And what had happened was there'd been several violent incidents in county courthouses around the state. So an assistant state's attorney in [inaudible 00:09:53] county drafted a county courthouse gun ban, took it to the legislature, and that was amended during the legislative process to include a ban on guns in the State Capitol.
It also allowed counties to opt out of the courthouse gun ban if they wanted to at the vote of their commission. But anyway, this bill banning guns in the Capitol and banning guns in county courthouses past 26 to nine in the Senate, 49 to 21 in the House, and the numbers were such that it could not have passed without the Republican support it received. And one of the fascinating things about that if you go back and look at those votes, there were some really notable Republicans at the time who voted for this bill. Examples include Mike Rounds, who was a legislator then went on to serve as governor and a U.S. senator, Kristy Fagan who went on to serve on the Public Utilities Commission, Carol Hillard who went on to serve as Lieutenant Governor and Dave Munson who went on to serve as Mayor of Sioux falls. These were all Republican legislators at the time who voted in favor of banning guns in the Capitol and banning guns in county courthouses.
Jackie Hendry:
Interesting. And I recall hearing that isn't even necessarily the case in the State Capitol anymore. Guns aren't totally banned in the State Capitol. What changed from the early 90's?
Seth Tupper:
Well, so again things change in society. Again, that law passed in 1993 then in 1999 we have the Columbine school shooting in Colorado. We have all the mass shootings since then and all the political debates about the proper place of guns in society. So the debate really got more divisive, that also happened in South Dakota. There's a group here called South Dakota Gun Owners, for example, which has a political action committee. And that group has funded political postcards that they send to voters where they condemn legislators as anti-gun or anti second amendment if they vote for things like a ban on guns in courthouses or a ban on guns in the Capitol, or if they vote against repealing those things. And this is a group, for example, that on its website calls itself a "no compromise gun rights organization".
And so besides that, there's also a lot of legislators who just feel like the second amendment is being threatened in some of the discussion that we're having in the country today that the right to bear arms. And some legislators in recent years thought they'd be safer if they could carry guns in the Capitol. And one of those was Betty Olson, who I interviewed a few years ago.
Betty Olson:
If you're a legislator and you're sitting down there on the floor and you're an open target for anybody that's up on the third floor, walking around and they can just go ahead and shoot you.
Seth Tupper:
So, yeah, Betty Olson supported that. Lots of other legislators supported opening up the Capitol to allow certain people to carry firearms in. And that happened a couple of years ago when legislators and Governor Noem repealed the ban on guns in the Capitol. And not just anybody can carry guns in there, but if you submit to a background check and complete a course in handgun training, pay some fees, and you give 24 hours notice when you're going to carry in the capital you are allowed to carry in the capital now. And so that set up sort of an interesting situation where it used to be that nobody could carry guns in the Capitol. And also nobody ever got screened to see if they were carrying.
Jackie Hendry:
Right.
Seth Tupper:
And now you can carry guns in the Capitol, but now they've also set up a screening checkpoint and everybody is screened.
Jackie Hendry:
Interesting.
Seth Tupper:
And so it's an example, I guess, of some of the ways that our attitudes have changed over the years and the complicating factors of this debate.
Jackie Hendry:
And I feel I've been hearing some more about guns in courthouses recently. What are some updates on that scenario?
Seth Tupper:
So, yeah, as I mentioned previously guns are basically banned in county courthouses, but local county commissions can opt out of that ban. And in recent years some have tried to do that, but there've been problems because in a lot of especially rural and smaller counties the county officials like the treasurers and auditors and those offices share a space with courthouse officials or court officials. And although some of the county officials and employees and residents want to be able to carry guns in the county courthouse, a lot of court officials don't feel that's safe in a courthouse setting. So we recently heard on In the Moment, Chief Justice Stephen Jensen of the South Dakota Supreme Court, he's working through some of those issues right now trying to figure out how do they honor the second amendment and allow people to carry in courthouses if a county chooses to do that yet also keep their courthouse employees safe and in an environment where in emotional court proceedings you don't typically want firearms introduced into that setting.