This interview originally aired on "In the Moment" on SDPB Radio.
The U.S. House of Representatives has had a tough year. We ask Rep. Dusty Johnson what's next for South Dakota's interests in Washington.
He discusses his party's goals and finding bipartisan solutions for the American people. Plus, what were his highlights and frustrations of the year?
The following transcript was auto generated.
Lori Walsh:
You're listening to In The Moment on South Dakota Public Broadcasting. I'm Lori Walsh. It's been a tough year for the U.S. House of Representatives. Republicans hold an ever narrowing margin and the body has been plagued with accusations of lack of substance and lack of seriousness. Meanwhile, we are headed into an election year. I spoke with South Dakota's Representative Dusty Johnson this morning. I asked him to lay out some of the highlights and frustrations of 2023.
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
Let's start with the frustrations because they've been sizable. I mean, I'm a guy who, like a lot of South Dakotans, who frankly just wants to get things done, fiscal cliffs and dumpster fires and breakdowns. But this is not generally how South Dakotans conduct their business at the school board or the church council. It doesn't make America stronger when we bicker like children, and there's been a lot of that. Frustrating. I think we are starting to see some retirements from good members who just are kind of sick of putting up with it.
And I'm concerned that that's going to make it even harder in the next two years to get things done. But if I'm putting on my optimist cap, the one that I love to wear so often, I would say that even given that, there have been some pretty remarkable accomplishments. And we do forget to call them out because sometimes the disputes are a little sexier to highlight. But we have had the biggest sign into law the biggest change to welfare. It's our biggest welfare reform since 1996.
We have made it easier to cite American energy of all kinds. We've got shot clocks on these environmental regulations so that we can actually get these projects done and sited in two or three years as opposed to seven or eight. Those were bipartisan accomplishments. We have cut a deal that is going to eliminate $2 trillion worth of spending in the next four years. It's the largest ever spending reduction in American history. That's not nothing. Given how slowly Congress moves, those are, I think, some high profile wins that should be higher profile than they have been.
Lori Walsh:
Tell me a little bit about what's happening now, especially regarding the budget and avoiding a government shutdown. We got a little bit of a grace period here, but it will go fast.
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
It will go fast. There's some reason for optimism. The House Republicans are guided by a number of deeply held values, but one of them is that we shouldn't be governing with these massive omnibuses, these 4,000 page bills that strike in the dead of night. It rolls all 12 appropriations bills into one, and then people are kind of forced to walk the plank with this unfortunate dichotomy of either shutting down the government or voting for some monstrosity.
And Speaker Mike Johnson has really tried to break the omni by dividing this up into different pieces and saying the deadline for four of these 12 bills is January 19th. The deadline for the other eight is February 2nd. And I think that is having the effect of trying to focus us on smaller packages. We don't mind combining a bill or two, provided that there's good transparency into what we're doing, provided that there's an awareness among numbers on both sides of the aisle about what is actually in these bills.
And I think if we can pass one or two packages in January, that's going to help us build some muscle memory, try to pass two or three or four more in February. Again, it probably won't be 12 different agreements, but it's really got to be more than one. And I hope we're headed in the right direction.
Lori Walsh:
What does that do to the negotiation process? Because this is not a time of high trust in the House of Representatives, and so sometimes putting bills together is that's the deal. Is it harder to get somebody to say, "Yes, I will come along on a bipartisan agreement with the promise that we'll have good faith in the next negotiation," if then that good faith doesn't come?
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
That is such an astute question, Lori. You're right. People, including myself, get frustrated when these big packages are put together. Why do they have to be so big? But you're right, that's sometimes the straw that stirs the drink. I think the problem is that too often in D.C., the way to get to yes is we pour some more financial gravy on your side of the ledger and we pour some more gravy on my side of the ledger.
Everybody gets an extra $100 billion for their priorities, and then we go along. And I just think when you're $33 trillion in debt, that is a tactic that if it was ever acceptable is no longer. And so you're right, it's going to be harder to get our work done without an omnibus. But I think long-term, we really have to get out of this business as usual nonsense.
Lori Walsh:
There's a seriousness to that, and that's what I want to talk to you about mostly today, is there's a lot of accusations about the House of Representatives just not being very serious now, a lot of pettiness, you mentioned a lot of retirement. So getting to sit down and pass legislation is also an effort to overcome the optics that there isn't a whole lot getting done.
And there's a lot of I think you said the word bickering. There's a lot of childishness right now. Is that what you're really seeing, or is that what's coming out in the press? Is there a lot of just frustrating immaturity right now, or is that just what's filtering down to us?
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
I mean, both is true, right? I mean, every week there are bills that pass out of the U.S. House with a couple hundred Democrat votes and a couple hundred Republican votes, and we don't talk a lot about those, but I think that's human nature. If you go to a Friday night basketball game, the next day you're probably not talking about how Caleb or Lindsay did a great job boxing out that meat and potatoes. Just doing your job and doing it well isn't super sexy. We're probably going to talk about the shoving match that a couple players got into.
Conflict is an important part of any story. That's what we learn in eighth grade English, right? I mean, every story has at its heart some conflict, man versus man, woman versus nature, woman versus self. I mean, we define these conflicts. That's what drives the stories. And there are a lot of conflicts. And the fact that Republican margins are so narrow means that every colorful member has influence and sway. Republicans had a 30 or 40 seat margin.
Some of the colorful members, I don't want to say they'd be ignored, but listen, you don't need to go negotiate with them because they can take their colorful priorities and go elsewhere. They're not needed to get that deal done. But everybody's needed on everything, and that does make it more difficult. But I would just want your listeners to understand that, listen, 95% of the business is really done in a far more productive and a far more bipartisan way than most people realize, but we are seeing a lot of breakdowns on the big stuff.
Lori Walsh:
It's hard for me personally with an election year in 2024 to think that that's going to improve. Because traditionally speaking, an election year is when it's going to worsen. What are your thoughts?
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
Yeah, it is going to get worse. I am required to view every policy discussion as a political cudgel. But man alive, there are a lot of people in politics who are wired that way. And so it's hard enough on something like asylum and refugee status for people of good faith who want to get to yes to work through these incredibly complex legal and humanitarian issues. It's a lot more difficult when you have a person on one side who view this as a way to attack Joe Biden and somebody on their side who view this as an opportunity to attack Donald Trump.
And it is going to be a really messy year to be in Congress. But all of us, any of us, Lori Walsh, Dusty Johnson, everybody else, we only have two potential responses to that. We can get frustrated, roll our eyes, shrug our shoulders, and wander off and go do something else, or we can resolve to work harder to get successes even when they're difficult. And I'm going to choose what's behind door number two.
Lori Walsh:
So that means you're not going to retire early like some of these other... Talk about your desire to stay or your desire to walk away and do something else. Where is your heart at?
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
It's interesting. When I first ran, so much of my motivation was really positive, like, oh my gosh, we're going to go change the world, and we're going to do huge things because the fever's going to break. And when the fever breaks, America's going to want real workers to be there to get things done when it gets easier. And I will admit to no longer being quite that optimistic, Lori. I don't think the fever is going to break anytime soon.
But now my motivation is not to be there because someday it will get easy, but my motivation is to stay there simply because it is so hard, and we're going to need people who stay and work even when it's hard. And I don't think that means that I'm going to do 30 or 40 years in the House. I really don't think anybody should, because I just don't know how you can bring that same spark to the office everyday in that kind of environment. But I guess as long as I bring that spark, I want to at least ask South Dakotans to give me another two year tour of duty to go work hard.
Lori Walsh:
Let's talk about Lynne Cheney's book and some of the calls that she's making and the warnings that she's making for the Republican Party. She's accused some of the leaders of being enablers and collaborators and says democracy is at stake if Donald Trump is elected. How does that land with you?
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
I voted to certify the 2020 election for a number of different reasons, but at least one is that I'm a constitutionalist, and the language of the Constitution is crystal clear about the role of Congress on that day. What it says, the totality of the article, one description of that day is something like the President of the Senate, that's the Vice President, shall open the certificates and count the electoral votes in the presence of the House and Senate.
So that makes it very clear that my role that day, observer to a ceremonial act, not a super judge with a super veto over how South Dakota conducts its elections. I know there are many of my colleagues who did not vote to certify the election, even though they believe in the Constitution and they believe that their oath of office to the Constitution should mean something. And the reason they regret their vote or the reason they took a vote that is not in alignment with their constitutional values is for politics.
They were concerned about how that would look to their base. To me, it's a little chilling when you have people who will do things that they know aren't right because they don't want to be politically uncomfortable or unpopular. That is a problem.
Lori Walsh:
Do you think democracy is at stake if Donald Trump is reelected?
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
I don't think the hyperbolic rhetoric is particularly helpful. Listen, clearly Donald Trump, he has a very different view of the rule of law and the importance of institutions than Lynne Cheney does. There are really a lot of very serious issues that we're going to have to work through. But I also think that making it sound like everything is going to fall apart after the next election, I don't think that's helpful. One analogy I would make would be with regard to climate change. I mean, 20 years ago, people were offering up very, very dramatic predictions about what would happen.
Those predictions didn't end up becoming true, and it made a lot of people believe that, well, gosh, if the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth warnings about climate change weren't quite true, then why should I listen to the seventh and eighth warnings? And I think it is time for serious clear-eyed talk about how America... I think there's a lot of populism that I think is undermining a lot of our very important institutions. But I guess I would want the talk to be, I think, a little bit more calibrated rather than quite so dramatic.
Lori Walsh:
So specific. In other words, this policy of Donald Trump would be unconstitutional. This temperature increase that we have scientific consensus for will affect agriculture in this way and we can stop it. Give me an example of the kind of language that you think would acknowledge the facts of climate change and the facts of some of the policies that this candidate is saying he wouldn't act if he were elected that helps people understand what's really going on without just slipping into hyperbole. Give me an example.
Rep. Dusty Johnson:
We've got opponents of Donald Trump who are saying that on day one, he will lock up his political opponents. I do not believe that that is true. When people say that, then I think it is easy for a lot of everyday Americans to then dismiss concerns as just political attacks. And maybe they are. Maybe their motivation is to politically weaken the likely Republican nominee. But I also think that the way that the former president talks about using the courts to settle scores is problematic.
I mean, that language is something that we need to unpack and talk about, but alleging that on day one everybody who's ever crossed Donald Trump is behind bars, I actually think that is an impediment to having the important conversation.
