ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
Nice is just the latest city where a terrorist has killed families, tourists and other ordinary people enjoying themselves in public. There have been attacks on cafes, dance clubs. This time, it was a seaside promenade during a Bastille Day celebration. Andrew Liepman of the RAND Corporation was the principal deputy director of the National Counterterrorism Center. And while we still don't know the exact motives of the attacker in Nice, I asked Liepman why these so-called soft targets are so attractive to terrorists.
ANDREW LIEPMAN: To some extent, this is what differentiates the Islamic State from other terrorist groups, in that all they're trying to do is maximize the carnage. Even al-Qaida, at its height, had a debate ongoing about how many innocent civilians, how many Muslims should be killed. And the Islamic State just doesn't seem to care - And I don't want to make the mistake of attributing this to the Islamic State, either prematurely or suggest that this guy was affiliated with them or controlled by them because it doesn't seem that way - but the Islamic State is certainly encouraging this kind of attack, attacks that are really hard to prevent or preempt.
SHAPIRO: How are these terrorist groups encouraging these sorts of attacks?
LIEPMAN: Through a number of ways. First, directly. I mean, their propaganda basically is communicating to folks, whether on Twitter or elsewhere. You know, if you can't come join us, attack where you are. Do whatever you can to cause mayhem. And they're sending that out on a regular basis. They're not saying, kill officials or kill soldiers or kill, you know, particular enemy. They're just saying, kill.
SHAPIRO: Well, talk about how you do prevent or preempt an attack like this when, you know, there are thousands of places on any given day where large groups of people are congregating in public.
LIEPMAN: Right, you know, admitting to ourselves that it's impossible to secure everything. What you're trying to do is identify sort of high-value targets, whether it be where lots of people are congregating - a sports arena, a theater. And then you provide as much physical security and obvious security as you can. The other aspects are surveillance sort of getting into the terrorist's head before the event. And that works, but it only works if the terrorist has communications, if there is something to actually surveil. And in this case, you know, if it's a lone wolf, there aren't a lot of red flags that we might see before the attack.
SHAPIRO: I know that your job for most of your career has been to make sure this is not the new normal. But as an analyst, I just have to ask you whether you think that at this point it is?
LIEPMAN: Yeah, I - you know, I think right now we're dealing with an unprecedented level of violence. And it's partially because, you know, al-Qaida was a selectively-violent organization, and the Islamic State seems to be a randomly-violent organization. It just encourages wherever and whenever. I think that's both - in many cases, more frightening, but also much more complicated for law enforcement.
I'm hoping that it's also not permanent when you say new normal. I do think that once the caliphate is shrunk and Iraq and Mosul are recaptured and the leaders of this horrible organization are eliminated, that eventually the ideology will also go away. Something else will take its place. Some other extremist banner will be flown, but this is a particularly virulent and nasty one.
SHAPIRO: That's Andrew Liepman of the RAND Corporation, former principal deputy director of the National Counterterrorism Center. Thank you for talking with us.
LIEPMAN: Thanks, Ari. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.